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Group:  English: Windows Server » microsoft.public.windows.server.dns
Thread: Fowarder failover

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Fowarder failover
BenP 11/20/2008 3:32:11 PM
I can't seem to find any information from MS about how many servers in a
forwarder list will be tried before queries are failed.

In O'Reilly DNS on Windows Server 2003 it says 6 servers can be configured.
There is no limit on how many servers can actually be entered in the list.

However when I have tested failing over DNS Server only seems to attempt the
first 3 forwarders in the list (netmon trace).

Is this a configurable parameter (registry) or fixed limitation?

Thnx
Re: Fowarder failover
"Phillip Windell" <philwindell[ at ]hotmail.com> 11/20/2008 4:59:40 PM
Use dependable Forwarders and you will never have to worry about it. 2 will
do fine and you should never need more than 3 to begin with. How long do
you expect the requesting Client to be "held up" waiting for a DNS response
from the DC? How long is the DC going to take to rolloever to the 3rd
one?,...let alone anything beyond that. What is the chance that you will
actually have 3 dead Forwarders on your list causing you to need a 4th?

I know that isn't the answer you were wanting,...but there is the issue of
the practicality of the situation to consider.

--
Phillip Windell
www.wandtv.com

The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
-----------------------------------------------------

"BenP" <BenP[ at ]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B0197871-6305-48FF-BFB1-0658D7A3A62B[ at ]microsoft.com...
[Quoted Text]
>I can't seem to find any information from MS about how many servers in a
> forwarder list will be tried before queries are failed.
>
> In O'Reilly DNS on Windows Server 2003 it says 6 servers can be
> configured.
> There is no limit on how many servers can actually be entered in the list.
>
> However when I have tested failing over DNS Server only seems to attempt
> the
> first 3 forwarders in the list (netmon trace).
>
> Is this a configurable parameter (registry) or fixed limitation?
>
> Thnx


RE: Fowarder failover
oz.ozugurlu 11/20/2008 10:18:01 PM
You have very interesting question, as general having two forwarders should
be enough and I would enable “the root hints option beside forwarders if the
forwarders won't response the queries” in case.
Assuming your servers do have internet connectivity , ISP DNS servers are
down or not answering the recursive queries as well as root hint server, Then
I would say nothing to worry about because the entire internet will be down
(-:, you can safely ignore anything in regards to external connectivity
--oz

--
Oz Ozugurlu
MVP (Exchange)
MCITP (EMA), MCITP (EA),MCITP (SA)
MCSE 2003, M+, S+, MCDST
Security+, Project +, Server +


oz[ at ]SMTp25.org
http://smtp25.blogspot.com (Blog)


"BenP" wrote:

[Quoted Text]
> I can't seem to find any information from MS about how many servers in a
> forwarder list will be tried before queries are failed.
>
> In O'Reilly DNS on Windows Server 2003 it says 6 servers can be configured.
> There is no limit on how many servers can actually be entered in the list.
>
> However when I have tested failing over DNS Server only seems to attempt the
> first 3 forwarders in the list (netmon trace).
>
> Is this a configurable parameter (registry) or fixed limitation?
>
> Thnx
RE: Fowarder failover
BenP 11/21/2008 9:40:00 AM
Thanks for response, but... doesn't answer my question. I have forward only
configuration so no root queries.

What I have found is the default forwarder query timeout - 5 seconds - is
still suitable and provides working failover. This is due to client side
interaction, even if client side query - generally 2 seconds - times out
first pass the forwarder list failover will still operate and bring back
successful answer, the second client pass will then have answer.

I have a datacentres infrastructure plus want to populate forwarders list
via GPO. Just want to know if I can get 4 working forwarders; two per
datacentre, or have to use 3 before setting up my policies.

"oz.ozugurlu" wrote:

[Quoted Text]
> You have very interesting question, as general having two forwarders should
> be enough and I would enable “the root hints option beside forwarders if the
> forwarders won't response the queries” in case.
> Assuming your servers do have internet connectivity , ISP DNS servers are
> down or not answering the recursive queries as well as root hint server, Then
> I would say nothing to worry about because the entire internet will be down
> (-:, you can safely ignore anything in regards to external connectivity
> --oz
>
> --
> Oz Ozugurlu
> MVP (Exchange)
> MCITP (EMA), MCITP (EA),MCITP (SA)
> MCSE 2003, M+, S+, MCDST
> Security+, Project +, Server +
>
>
> oz[ at ]SMTp25.org
> http://smtp25.blogspot.com (Blog)
>
>
> "BenP" wrote:
>
> > I can't seem to find any information from MS about how many servers in a
> > forwarder list will be tried before queries are failed.
> >
> > In O'Reilly DNS on Windows Server 2003 it says 6 servers can be configured.
> > There is no limit on how many servers can actually be entered in the list.
> >
> > However when I have tested failing over DNS Server only seems to attempt the
> > first 3 forwarders in the list (netmon trace).
> >
> > Is this a configurable parameter (registry) or fixed limitation?
> >
> > Thnx
Re: Fowarder failover
"Ace Fekay [Microsoft Certified Trainer]" <firstnamelastname[ at ]hotmail.com> 11/25/2008 5:08:00 AM
In news:4DE61A2B-95B1-4E8B-AF48-DFF3FDE51BD1[ at ]microsoft.com,
BenP <BenP[ at ]discussions.microsoft.com> requesting assistance, typed the
following:
[Quoted Text]
> Thanks for response, but... doesn't answer my question. I have
> forward only configuration so no root queries.
>
> What I have found is the default forwarder query timeout - 5 seconds
> - is still suitable and provides working failover. This is due to
> client side interaction, even if client side query - generally 2
> seconds - times out first pass the forwarder list failover will still
> operate and bring back successful answer, the second client pass will
> then have answer.
>
> I have a datacentres infrastructure plus want to populate forwarders
> list via GPO. Just want to know if I can get 4 working forwarders;
> two per datacentre, or have to use 3 before setting up my policies.

I don't believe you can configure Forwarders in a DNS server's properites
using a GPO. GPOs set numerous options for users and computers, but not a
Forwarder for a DNS server. That would be a DNS server properties setting.
You can set search suffixes in a GPO.

I am curious if you have a link on how to configure forwarders in a DNS
server properties via a GPO.

Forwarders can be set using DNSCMD if you have numerous servers to
configure.
More info about DNSCMD:
http://msmvps.com/blogs/ad/archive/2008/03/28/dnscmd-reference.aspx

These are the available list of GPO settings that I am aware of:

Windows 2003 AD Group Policy Settings Reference
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=7821c32f-da15-438d-8e48-45915cd2bc14&displaylang=en

Group Policy Settings Reference for Windows Server 2008 and Windows Vista
SP1
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=2043B94E-66CD-4B91-9E0F-68363245C495&displaylang=en


Also, I must agree with the others concerning forwarding and limiting the
list. Thinking out loud, it would seem that the client machine's client side
resolver may time out before waiting for the 5 second time out for 3 failed
forwarders, in a scenario where you have 4 forwarders listed and the first
three go down, and go on to the next one in the list in it's IP properties.

You can also alter the Forwarder time-out:
How to Configure a DNS server to use forwarders: (shows how to alter
forwarder time-out)
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc773370.aspx

Here is a good post by Kevin Goodnecht explaining the forwarders time out
and scenarios with too many.
http://help.lockergnome.com/windows2/Strange-forwarding-issues-ftopict482618.html
quoted from above link:
-------------------
"Actually, the DNS service will stick to the Forwarder that provides an
answer, no matter where it is in the list, if one forwarder times out(no
answer) it will move to the next forwarder in the list, if the next
forwarder provides an answer it uses it until it times out. The problem for
you is, that it may not get back around to the first forwarder, before the
Forwarding timeout expires, and it starts using recursion itself and goes to
the root hints.

Now, if you check the box "Do not use recursion" the DNS server will use
only its forwarders, and will not use root hints. But this cannot guarantee
that one of the other servers being used as a forwarder answer the query,

I recommend that if there is a domain that cannot be reached through the
internet root, that you add a secondary zone for that domain on the Win2k
DNS server. "
-------------------

I hope this helps to answer your questions concerning Forwarder failover.

--
Ace

This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees and
confers no rights.

Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCT
Microsoft Certified Trainer

For urgent issues, you may want to contact Microsoft PSS directly. Please
check http://support.microsoft.com for regional support phone numbers.

Re: Fowarder failover
BenP 11/26/2008 4:18:13 PM
You can change the forwarders with policy on following reg key;

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DNS\Parameters]
"Forwarders"="xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx"

Problem is this is only picked up when DNS Server service starts, when I
change it I run a script afterwards to bounce the service.

It seems that I am stuck with 3 Forwarders, this is not good from MS, even
Bind 8 which I am moving away from there is no limit and also does RTT on
Forwarders to get best performing and this product is 8 years old!

Hopefully can do better with W2k8...

Thanks for comments nonetherless.

"Ace Fekay [Microsoft Certified Trainer]" wrote:

[Quoted Text]
> In news:4DE61A2B-95B1-4E8B-AF48-DFF3FDE51BD1[ at ]microsoft.com,
> BenP <BenP[ at ]discussions.microsoft.com> requesting assistance, typed the
> following:
> > Thanks for response, but... doesn't answer my question. I have
> > forward only configuration so no root queries.
> >
> > What I have found is the default forwarder query timeout - 5 seconds
> > - is still suitable and provides working failover. This is due to
> > client side interaction, even if client side query - generally 2
> > seconds - times out first pass the forwarder list failover will still
> > operate and bring back successful answer, the second client pass will
> > then have answer.
> >
> > I have a datacentres infrastructure plus want to populate forwarders
> > list via GPO. Just want to know if I can get 4 working forwarders;
> > two per datacentre, or have to use 3 before setting up my policies.
>
> I don't believe you can configure Forwarders in a DNS server's properites
> using a GPO. GPOs set numerous options for users and computers, but not a
> Forwarder for a DNS server. That would be a DNS server properties setting.
> You can set search suffixes in a GPO.
>
> I am curious if you have a link on how to configure forwarders in a DNS
> server properties via a GPO.
>
> Forwarders can be set using DNSCMD if you have numerous servers to
> configure.
> More info about DNSCMD:
> http://msmvps.com/blogs/ad/archive/2008/03/28/dnscmd-reference.aspx
>
> These are the available list of GPO settings that I am aware of:
>
> Windows 2003 AD Group Policy Settings Reference
> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=7821c32f-da15-438d-8e48-45915cd2bc14&displaylang=en
>
> Group Policy Settings Reference for Windows Server 2008 and Windows Vista
> SP1
> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=2043B94E-66CD-4B91-9E0F-68363245C495&displaylang=en
>
>
> Also, I must agree with the others concerning forwarding and limiting the
> list. Thinking out loud, it would seem that the client machine's client side
> resolver may time out before waiting for the 5 second time out for 3 failed
> forwarders, in a scenario where you have 4 forwarders listed and the first
> three go down, and go on to the next one in the list in it's IP properties.
>
> You can also alter the Forwarder time-out:
> How to Configure a DNS server to use forwarders: (shows how to alter
> forwarder time-out)
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc773370.aspx
>
> Here is a good post by Kevin Goodnecht explaining the forwarders time out
> and scenarios with too many.
> http://help.lockergnome.com/windows2/Strange-forwarding-issues-ftopict482618.html
> quoted from above link:
> -------------------
> "Actually, the DNS service will stick to the Forwarder that provides an
> answer, no matter where it is in the list, if one forwarder times out(no
> answer) it will move to the next forwarder in the list, if the next
> forwarder provides an answer it uses it until it times out. The problem for
> you is, that it may not get back around to the first forwarder, before the
> Forwarding timeout expires, and it starts using recursion itself and goes to
> the root hints.
>
> Now, if you check the box "Do not use recursion" the DNS server will use
> only its forwarders, and will not use root hints. But this cannot guarantee
> that one of the other servers being used as a forwarder answer the query,
>
> I recommend that if there is a domain that cannot be reached through the
> internet root, that you add a secondary zone for that domain on the Win2k
> DNS server. "
> -------------------
>
> I hope this helps to answer your questions concerning Forwarder failover.
>
> --
> Ace
>
> This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees and
> confers no rights.
>
> Ace Fekay, MCSE 2003 & 2000, MCSA 2003 & 2000, MCT
> Microsoft Certified Trainer
>
> For urgent issues, you may want to contact Microsoft PSS directly. Please
> check http://support.microsoft.com for regional support phone numbers.
>
>
Re: Fowarder failover
"Ace Fekay [Microsoft Certified Trainer]" <firstnamelastname[ at ]hotmail.com> 11/27/2008 5:37:24 AM
In news:EB7AD72B-F1D4-4B71-9699-914E5B496C6F[ at ]microsoft.com,
BenP <BenP[ at ]discussions.microsoft.com> requesting assistance, typed the
following:
[Quoted Text]
> You can change the forwarders with policy on following reg key;
>
> [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DNS\Parameters]
> "Forwarders"="xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx"
>
> Problem is this is only picked up when DNS Server service starts,
> when I change it I run a script afterwards to bounce the service.
>
> It seems that I am stuck with 3 Forwarders, this is not good from MS,
> even Bind 8 which I am moving away from there is no limit and also
> does RTT on Forwarders to get best performing and this product is 8
> years old!
>
> Hopefully can do better with W2k8...
>
> Thanks for comments nonetherless.
>

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the hint with the Forwarders reg key. I thought you meant
directly in a GPO option. I apologize.

Well, as for the forwarders, I think it comes down to time-out logistics. I
haven't heard anything different yet concerning Windows 2008 in how to
overcome this, but if anyone has, I would welcome any information.

Good luck!

Ace

Re: Fowarder failover
"Phillip Windell" <philwindell[ at ]hotmail.com> 12/2/2008 4:19:12 PM
"BenP" <BenP[ at ]discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:EB7AD72B-F1D4-4B71-9699-914E5B496C6F[ at ]microsoft.com...
[Quoted Text]
> It seems that I am stuck with 3 Forwarders, this is not good from MS, even
> Bind 8 which I am moving away from there is no limit and also does RTT on
> Forwarders to get best performing and this product is 8 years old!

It is not about Forwarder limits or MS "doing" or "not doing" anything. It
is about the timouts of how long things just simply *take* to perform. It
takes too long for all of those forwarders to be processed/failed,
processed/failed, processed/failed, processed/failed, beyond three or so
Forwarders before the original Client making the original request "gives
up" and stops waiting.

It is also overlooking/ignoring the original problem,....crappy worthless
undependable Forwarders,...the real problem is that better more dependable
Forwarders are required.

If 2 or 3 Forwarders are not enough or don't "lead" to a correct resolution
then the whole DNS Scheme of the LAN needs to be reconsidered, because
perhaps you are trying to use Forwarders to provide a solution to something
that the Forwarder concept is not designed to provide..

--
Phillip Windell
www.wandtv.com

The views expressed, are my own and not those of my employer, or Microsoft,
or anyone else associated with me, including my cats.
-----------------------------------------------------


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