|
|
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Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration below), we
see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate appears
to be somewhat dependent on the content:
Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes (poor)
Our test configuration is as follows:
Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current. The
Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between 5.0
and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were performed using
the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct viewing of ATSC and NTSC
channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped frames at
any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no dropped
frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to 1920 x
1080.
During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about 60%,
and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live TV
does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So, by
most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we are
seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we expected
better results.
Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware, what
performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially from the
graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames, can
you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems from
the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable the
time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is essentially a
playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
Thank you for any help!
|
|
You are being much too critical.
You never really know when some other process on you computer is taking some
system CPU time away from the time your graphics card needs to perform all
of its hardware acceleration functions and still have time left to not drop
a frame every so often.
I would consider 2 per minute fantastic and would consider over 5 per
second as poor.
Remember movies are are made at 24 frames per second and you never see a
proplem with them even in a car chase episode.
"Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
news:eFc382ClHHA.596[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
[Quoted Text] > Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration below),
> we
> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
> appears
> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>
> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>
> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes (poor)
>
> Our test configuration is as follows:
>
> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>
> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
> The
> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between 5.0
> and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were performed
> using the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct viewing of ATSC
> and NTSC
> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped frames
> at
> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no dropped
> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to 1920
> x
> 1080.
>
> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
> 60%,
> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live TV
> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So, by
> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>
> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we are
> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
> expected
> better results.
>
> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
> what
> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially from
> the
> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames, can
> you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>
> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems from
> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable the
> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is essentially a
> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>
> Thank you for any help!
>
|
|
JW:
Thank you for your reply. I would be interested in hearing if others have
similar experience and opinion. Personally, I find a dropped frame rate of
2 per minute annoying to the point of not wanting to watch it.
I'm also thinking the problem might be on the recording side, since HD WMV
plays back flawlessly, as do DVDs.
Can anyone else offer their experience/opinion? Thanks!
Tim
"JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
news:ORyeCzDlHHA.4628[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
[Quoted Text] > You are being much too critical.
> You never really know when some other process on you computer is taking
> some system CPU time away from the time your graphics card needs to
> perform all of its hardware acceleration functions and still have time
> left to not drop a frame every so often.
> I would consider 2 per minute fantastic and would consider over 5 per
> second as poor.
> Remember movies are are made at 24 frames per second and you never see a
> proplem with them even in a car chase episode.
> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:eFc382ClHHA.596[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration below),
>> we
>> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
>> appears
>> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>>
>> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>>
>> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
>> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
>> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
>> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes (poor)
>>
>> Our test configuration is as follows:
>>
>> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
>> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
>> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
>> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
>> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
>> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>>
>> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
>> The
>> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between 5.0
>> and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were performed
>> using the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct viewing of ATSC
>> and NTSC
>> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped frames
>> at
>> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no dropped
>> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to 1920
>> x
>> 1080.
>>
>> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
>> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
>> 60%,
>> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live TV
>> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So, by
>> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>>
>> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
>> are
>> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
>> expected
>> better results.
>>
>> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
>> what
>> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially from
>> the
>> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
>> can you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>>
>> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
>> from
>> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable the
>> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is essentially
>> a
>> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>>
>> Thank you for any help!
>>
>
>
|
|
I am just amazed that at 60 frames per second that you can notice that 2
frames per miniute are dropped.
What tool do you use to tell you this?
So you think that the encoder in the tuner card is haveing trouble keeping
up during high motion activity and it is the encoder dropping the frames or
are the frames being dropped at playback time. In other words does a
recorded analog program already have the frames dropped when the program is
recorded?
"Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
news:ecDydYzlHHA.4624[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
[Quoted Text] > JW:
>
> Thank you for your reply. I would be interested in hearing if others have
> similar experience and opinion. Personally, I find a dropped frame rate
> of 2 per minute annoying to the point of not wanting to watch it.
>
> I'm also thinking the problem might be on the recording side, since HD WMV
> plays back flawlessly, as do DVDs.
>
> Can anyone else offer their experience/opinion? Thanks!
>
> Tim
>
> "JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
> news:ORyeCzDlHHA.4628[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> You are being much too critical.
>> You never really know when some other process on you computer is taking
>> some system CPU time away from the time your graphics card needs to
>> perform all of its hardware acceleration functions and still have time
>> left to not drop a frame every so often.
>> I would consider 2 per minute fantastic and would consider over 5 per
>> second as poor.
>> Remember movies are are made at 24 frames per second and you never see a
>> proplem with them even in a car chase episode.
>> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
>> news:eFc382ClHHA.596[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration
>>> below), we
>>> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
>>> appears
>>> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>>>
>>> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>>>
>>> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
>>> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
>>> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
>>> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes (poor)
>>>
>>> Our test configuration is as follows:
>>>
>>> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
>>> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
>>> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
>>> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
>>> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
>>> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>>>
>>> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
>>> The
>>> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between
>>> 5.0 and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were
>>> performed using the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct
>>> viewing of ATSC and NTSC
>>> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped frames
>>> at
>>> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no dropped
>>> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to
>>> 1920 x
>>> 1080.
>>>
>>> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
>>> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
>>> 60%,
>>> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live
>>> TV
>>> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So,
>>> by
>>> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>>>
>>> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
>>> are
>>> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
>>> expected
>>> better results.
>>>
>>> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
>>> what
>>> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially from
>>> the
>>> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
>>> can you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>>>
>>> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
>>> from
>>> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable the
>>> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is essentially
>>> a
>>> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>>>
>>> Thank you for any help!
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
I would put a better video adapter in there and try it again, something
like a 7600 or better.
Also you can't disable the buffer for live tv, that's just the way dvr's
work. My replaytv did the same thing back in the day..
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Sagstetter [mailto:Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com]
Posted At: Friday, May 11, 2007 7:38 PM
Posted To: microsoft.public.windows.mediacenter.hometheaterpc
Conversation: Dropped frames in Vista Media Center Live and Recorded TV
Subject: Dropped frames in Vista Media Center Live and Recorded TV
Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration
below), we
see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
appears
to be somewhat dependent on the content:
Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes (poor)
Our test configuration is as follows:
Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
The
Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between
5.0
and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were performed
using
the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct viewing of ATSC and
NTSC
channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped frames
at
any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no dropped
frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to
1920 x
1080.
During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
60%,
and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live
TV
does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So,
by
most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
are
seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
expected
better results.
Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
what
performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially from
the
graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
can
you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
from
the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable the
time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is essentially
a
playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
Thank you for any help!
|
|
Since the work required to process 720p by your graphics card is far less
then the work required to process 1080i. I don't suspect your graphics card
at all. The older Intel 945 chips could handle 1080i so I am sure yours can
too.
I now suspect that the problem is related to network bandwidth being
allocated by the broadcasters and that it is not enough to fully keep up
with the larger amount of encoded video caused by fast action scenes. The
doesn't explain the problem with analog and that could be caused by the
encoder for your tuner not keeping up.
"JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
news:u$zg13zlHHA.3872[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
[Quoted Text] >I am just amazed that at 60 frames per second that you can notice that 2
>frames per miniute are dropped.
> What tool do you use to tell you this?
> So you think that the encoder in the tuner card is haveing trouble keeping
> up during high motion activity and it is the encoder dropping the frames
> or are the frames being dropped at playback time. In other words does a
> recorded analog program already have the frames dropped when the program
> is recorded?
>
> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:ecDydYzlHHA.4624[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> JW:
>>
>> Thank you for your reply. I would be interested in hearing if others
>> have similar experience and opinion. Personally, I find a dropped frame
>> rate of 2 per minute annoying to the point of not wanting to watch it.
>>
>> I'm also thinking the problem might be on the recording side, since HD
>> WMV plays back flawlessly, as do DVDs.
>>
>> Can anyone else offer their experience/opinion? Thanks!
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> "JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
>> news:ORyeCzDlHHA.4628[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> You are being much too critical.
>>> You never really know when some other process on you computer is taking
>>> some system CPU time away from the time your graphics card needs to
>>> perform all of its hardware acceleration functions and still have time
>>> left to not drop a frame every so often.
>>> I would consider 2 per minute fantastic and would consider over 5 per
>>> second as poor.
>>> Remember movies are are made at 24 frames per second and you never see a
>>> proplem with them even in a car chase episode.
>>> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eFc382ClHHA.596[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration
>>>> below), we
>>>> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
>>>> appears
>>>> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>>>>
>>>> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>>>>
>>>> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
>>>> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
>>>> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
>>>> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes
>>>> (poor)
>>>>
>>>> Our test configuration is as follows:
>>>>
>>>> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
>>>> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
>>>> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
>>>> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
>>>> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
>>>> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>>>>
>>>> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
>>>> The
>>>> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between
>>>> 5.0 and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were
>>>> performed using the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct
>>>> viewing of ATSC and NTSC
>>>> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped
>>>> frames at
>>>> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no
>>>> dropped
>>>> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to
>>>> 1920 x
>>>> 1080.
>>>>
>>>> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
>>>> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
>>>> 60%,
>>>> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live
>>>> TV
>>>> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So,
>>>> by
>>>> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>>>>
>>>> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
>>>> are
>>>> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
>>>> expected
>>>> better results.
>>>>
>>>> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
>>>> what
>>>> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially
>>>> from the
>>>> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
>>>> can you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>>>>
>>>> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
>>>> from
>>>> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable
>>>> the
>>>> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is
>>>> essentially a
>>>> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for any help!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
Mike:
Thanks for your reply. I am considering testing a discreet graphics
solution, although I'm now leaning toward this being an encoding problem. A
few weeks ago, when I noticed dropped frames in playback and replayed the
same scene a few times, the dropped frames might or might not occur in the
same place. This lead me to believe it was a playback issue. However,
Intel has recently released newer drivers. When I replay scenes with
dropped frames now, they always appear to be in the same place. Thus, I
wonder if the playback issue is largely resolved by the newer drivers, but I
am now seeing only encoding issues. We did see about a 90% or more
reduction in dropped frames going from the Intel March drivers to the ones
released in April. We just thought maybe a little more work was needed.
Maybe that was a false assumption. Still, I did receive a message from
Intel support today stating that they believe there is still some level of
problem and that they are working on it.
Tim
"Michael Brown" <mike[ at ]NOSPAMmabrown.net> wrote in message
news:000001c7973e$4558c300$a215810a[ at ]corp.dvn.com...
[Quoted Text] >I would put a better video adapter in there and try it again, something
> like a 7600 or better.
>
> Also you can't disable the buffer for live tv, that's just the way dvr's
> work. My replaytv did the same thing back in the day..
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Sagstetter [mailto:Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com]
> Posted At: Friday, May 11, 2007 7:38 PM
> Posted To: microsoft.public.windows.mediacenter.hometheaterpc
> Conversation: Dropped frames in Vista Media Center Live and Recorded TV
> Subject: Dropped frames in Vista Media Center Live and Recorded TV
>
> Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration
> below), we
> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
> appears
> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>
> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>
> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes (poor)
>
> Our test configuration is as follows:
>
> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>
> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
> The
> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between
> 5.0
> and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were performed
> using
> the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct viewing of ATSC and
> NTSC
> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped frames
> at
> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no dropped
> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to
> 1920 x
> 1080.
>
> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
> 60%,
> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live
> TV
> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So,
> by
> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>
> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
> are
> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
> expected
> better results.
>
> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
> what
> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially from
> the
> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
> can
> you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>
> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
> from
> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable the
> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is essentially
> a
> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>
> Thank you for any help!
>
>
|
|
JW:
Thank you for your continued help. The numbers I mentioned were just a
subjective measure based on observation, as we could not get our tool to
work under Vista. You're right that I can't be sure of the number of actual
dropped frames. I can only state the number of events I observe where it
appears frames have been dropped. The events to which I am referring are
those where the smooth flow of the image is interrupted momentarily and it
appears to jump from one frame to later frame. Perhaps there are multiple
frames dropped during each event, I don't know, but the duration is very
brief.
As I replied to Mike in a later post, a few weeks ago I was sure the events
were at least occurring during playback, as newer releases of the Intel
drivers made major reductions in the frequency of these events. I lately
have been pursuing the remaining, although much smaller, problem.
Previously, replaying scenes in which these events occurred might or might
not see them repeated in the same place. With the most recent drivers,
replaying the scenes where these events are noticed, the events seem to
recur at the same placeeach time. Thus, I'm now suspicious that that the
remaining events are encoding issues. Since the AVerMedia card is new with
Vista drivers, perhaps there are a few bugs there yet.
Tim
"JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
news:u$zg13zlHHA.3872[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
[Quoted Text] >I am just amazed that at 60 frames per second that you can notice that 2
>frames per miniute are dropped.
> What tool do you use to tell you this?
> So you think that the encoder in the tuner card is haveing trouble keeping
> up during high motion activity and it is the encoder dropping the frames
> or are the frames being dropped at playback time. In other words does a
> recorded analog program already have the frames dropped when the program
> is recorded?
>
> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:ecDydYzlHHA.4624[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> JW:
>>
>> Thank you for your reply. I would be interested in hearing if others
>> have similar experience and opinion. Personally, I find a dropped frame
>> rate of 2 per minute annoying to the point of not wanting to watch it.
>>
>> I'm also thinking the problem might be on the recording side, since HD
>> WMV plays back flawlessly, as do DVDs.
>>
>> Can anyone else offer their experience/opinion? Thanks!
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> "JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
>> news:ORyeCzDlHHA.4628[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> You are being much too critical.
>>> You never really know when some other process on you computer is taking
>>> some system CPU time away from the time your graphics card needs to
>>> perform all of its hardware acceleration functions and still have time
>>> left to not drop a frame every so often.
>>> I would consider 2 per minute fantastic and would consider over 5 per
>>> second as poor.
>>> Remember movies are are made at 24 frames per second and you never see a
>>> proplem with them even in a car chase episode.
>>> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eFc382ClHHA.596[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration
>>>> below), we
>>>> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
>>>> appears
>>>> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>>>>
>>>> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>>>>
>>>> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
>>>> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
>>>> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
>>>> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes
>>>> (poor)
>>>>
>>>> Our test configuration is as follows:
>>>>
>>>> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
>>>> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
>>>> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
>>>> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
>>>> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
>>>> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>>>>
>>>> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are current.
>>>> The
>>>> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between
>>>> 5.0 and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were
>>>> performed using the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct
>>>> viewing of ATSC and NTSC
>>>> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped
>>>> frames at
>>>> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no
>>>> dropped
>>>> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to
>>>> 1920 x
>>>> 1080.
>>>>
>>>> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
>>>> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at about
>>>> 60%,
>>>> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live
>>>> TV
>>>> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So,
>>>> by
>>>> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>>>>
>>>> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
>>>> are
>>>> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
>>>> expected
>>>> better results.
>>>>
>>>> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
>>>> what
>>>> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially
>>>> from the
>>>> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
>>>> can you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>>>>
>>>> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
>>>> from
>>>> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable
>>>> the
>>>> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is
>>>> essentially a
>>>> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for any help!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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JW:
Thanks, again. As I mentioned in the previous post, I think you are right
regarding playback, although a message from Intel Support today indicates
they think there might be some residual problem in the current driver.
Still, as I also mentioned, the dropped frame events now seem to be in the
recorded material. That is, replaying the recording seems to drop frames in
the same place each time, where in the past the events were not so
repeatable.
At this point, I'm not as suspicious of a broadcast bandwidth problem as an
encoder issue. I haven't noticed any of these events occurring during
viewing of direct broadcasts. Typically a lack of bandwidth in fast motion
scenes has been displayed as pixelation rather than dropped frames. As you
also mentioned, a bandwidth issue wouldn't explain the analog issue.
AVerMedia seems to be very interested in customer experiences with their
products, so I think our next step will be to ask them if other customers
have had a similar experience. Thanks for your helpful comments.
Tim
"JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
news:u59QZD8lHHA.3280[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
[Quoted Text] > Since the work required to process 720p by your graphics card is far less
> then the work required to process 1080i. I don't suspect your graphics
> card at all. The older Intel 945 chips could handle 1080i so I am sure
> yours can too.
> I now suspect that the problem is related to network bandwidth being
> allocated by the broadcasters and that it is not enough to fully keep up
> with the larger amount of encoded video caused by fast action scenes. The
> doesn't explain the problem with analog and that could be caused by the
> encoder for your tuner not keeping up.
> "JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
> news:u$zg13zlHHA.3872[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>I am just amazed that at 60 frames per second that you can notice that 2
>>frames per miniute are dropped.
>> What tool do you use to tell you this?
>> So you think that the encoder in the tuner card is haveing trouble
>> keeping up during high motion activity and it is the encoder dropping the
>> frames or are the frames being dropped at playback time. In other words
>> does a recorded analog program already have the frames dropped when the
>> program is recorded?
>>
>> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
>> news:ecDydYzlHHA.4624[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> JW:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your reply. I would be interested in hearing if others
>>> have similar experience and opinion. Personally, I find a dropped frame
>>> rate of 2 per minute annoying to the point of not wanting to watch it.
>>>
>>> I'm also thinking the problem might be on the recording side, since HD
>>> WMV plays back flawlessly, as do DVDs.
>>>
>>> Can anyone else offer their experience/opinion? Thanks!
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> "JW" <nospam[ at ]no.spam> wrote in message
>>> news:ORyeCzDlHHA.4628[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> You are being much too critical.
>>>> You never really know when some other process on you computer is taking
>>>> some system CPU time away from the time your graphics card needs to
>>>> perform all of its hardware acceleration functions and still have time
>>>> left to not drop a frame every so often.
>>>> I would consider 2 per minute fantastic and would consider over 5 per
>>>> second as poor.
>>>> Remember movies are are made at 24 frames per second and you never see
>>>> a proplem with them even in a car chase episode.
>>>> "Tim Sagstetter" <Tim.Sagstetter[ at ]KernelSoftware.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:eFc382ClHHA.596[ at ]TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Using what we believe to be an adequate system (see configuration
>>>>> below), we
>>>>> see dropped frames in Live and Recorded TV. The dropped frame rate
>>>>> appears
>>>>> to be somewhat dependent on the content:
>>>>>
>>>>> Signal Res Content Dropped frame rate
>>>>>
>>>>> Digital 1080 Typical network fare 4 per hour (good)
>>>>> Digital 720 Fast action sports 2 per minute (very poor)
>>>>> Digital 480 Typical network fare Almost zero (very good)
>>>>> Analog NA Typical network fare 1 every few minutes
>>>>> (poor)
>>>>>
>>>>> Our test configuration is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> Intel DG965OYMKR main board with GMA X3000 graphics chip
>>>>> Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 processor
>>>>> Kingston 2 x 1 GB 800 MHz memory
>>>>> Seagate SATA 300 hard drive
>>>>> AVerMedia AVerTV Combo PCI-e with hardware encoding
>>>>> ProLink ADD2 with HDMI output
>>>>>
>>>>> All BIOS, firmware, drivers, and updates of all components are
>>>>> current. The
>>>>> Vista performance score for all components except graphics is between
>>>>> 5.0 and 5.5. The graphics solution scores 3.9. All tests were
>>>>> performed using the same antenna in the same orientation. Direct
>>>>> viewing of ATSC and NTSC
>>>>> channels (without the Media Center computer) exhibited no dropped
>>>>> frames at
>>>>> any time. Playback of WMV HD files encoded at 1080 exhibited no
>>>>> dropped
>>>>> frames. All tests were done with the Media Center resolution set to
>>>>> 1920 x
>>>>> 1080.
>>>>>
>>>>> During testing, no other programs were running except Task Manager on
>>>>> occasion. Task Manager indicates CPU useage at 20-25%, memory at
>>>>> about 60%,
>>>>> and I/O at about 2-3 MB/sec. Viewing Recorded TV while recording live
>>>>> TV
>>>>> does not seem to affect the dropped frame rate for either stream. So,
>>>>> by
>>>>> most measures, it would seem there are adequate resources.
>>>>>
>>>>> Question 1: Are we being too critical? Are the dropped frame rates we
>>>>> are
>>>>> seeing simply the current state of the art? With good hardware, we
>>>>> expected
>>>>> better results.
>>>>>
>>>>> Question 2: If no dropped frames are expected with adequate hardware,
>>>>> what
>>>>> performance score is recommended to achieve that result (especially
>>>>> from the
>>>>> graphics solution)? If your configuration exhibits no dropped frames,
>>>>> can you post the Vista performance score for your graphics solution?
>>>>>
>>>>> Question 3: It would be easier to diagnose whether the problem stems
>>>>> from
>>>>> the encoding side or the decoding side if it was possible to disable
>>>>> the
>>>>> time-shifting feature of Live TV. As it is, even Live TV is
>>>>> essentially a
>>>>> playback. Can time shifting be disabled for testing? If so, how?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for any help!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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A final note:
Many more tests seem to reveal that there are two remaining issues: an
analog encoding issue and a playback issue. Most of the dropped frames are
on analog recordings. Repeated playback shows these dropped frames
occurring in the same places each time. However, even with digital
recordings there are occasional dropped frames. Repeated playback does not
show these dropped frames to be repeatable. Intel indicated they now
consider the playback issue to be a known issue and hopes to provide a fix
in a future driver (after Apr-2007). As yet, AVerMedia has not acknowledged
an encoder problem under Vista Media Center.
Thanks for your comments!
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